77 EDUCATIONAL FORUM

NBA PART 1



Diane Sullivan: Welcome to the Massachusetts School of Law Educational Forum. Thank you for joining me. This program is brought to you by the Massachusetts School of Law. Today we're at the RDV Sportsplex in Orlando Florida. The topic for today's show is the NBA, how has it changed over the years? Which RO was better? And Michael Jordan, how has he impacted the game? I'm Diane Sullivan, your host for today's show. Joining me now is one of the most influential people in NBA history, Pat Williams, the Senior Vice President of the Orlando Magic. Previously he was the General Manager of the Philadelphia 76ers; including the season that they were the NBA champs. Prior to that he was the General Manger for the Atlanta Hawks and the Chicago Bulls. Tell me all the eras that you've been a part of, what have been your favorite teams and your favorite times?

Pat Williams: Oh, one of my favorite teams was the team in Chicago that I helped put together with Dick Motta; '69 to '73, oh that was a very, very favorite team. And how could it not be, Chet Walker, Bob Love, Tom Boerwinkle, the great passing center. The toughest, most hard-nosed back court, Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Leer, Norm Van Leer, who Bob Cousy coached for a while in Cincinnati, oh that was a wonderful team. And the City of Chicago really fell in love with them because they were Chicago, black and blue. You know, you would have loved that team, Diane.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah.

Pat Williams: All over the floor, floor burns, match-ups with Milwaukee. You'd see Jerry Sloan toe to toe with Oscar Robertson in the old Chicago Stadium on a freezing cold January night. Oh! That would have warmed the cockles of your heart.

Diane Sullivan: Take me back there.

Pat Williams: And the Celtics would come in with the young Dave Cowens, good stuff. That was one of my favorite teams. And then, of course, the team that won in Philadelphia in '83.

Diane Sullivan: Oh, sure.

Pat Williams: Moses Malone and Doctor J and Andrew Tony the Celtic Strangler, The Boston Strangler, Maurice Cheeks, marvelous team.

Diane Sullivan: Great match-ups.

Pat Williams: Oh, that was--And may we always remember Philly-Boston, every spring. It was kind of a Right of Spring.

Diane Sullivan: Right.

Pat Williams: They would match up. What a marvelous rivalry; as far as I'm concerned, Diane, the most intense rivalry in all sports, you know, and I'm not minimizing the Yankees and the Red Sox, I'm not minimizing Michigan and Ohio State or Duke-Carolina but Philly-Boston, in the NBA, hits my list.

Diane Sullivan: And remember when Doctor J retired and he made his final tour to Boston, I mean, for us it was almost as though Larry Byrd were retiring.

Pat Williams: Well, he had that Massachusetts background, you know, he was a U-Mass guy.

Diane Sullivan: Right.

Pat Williams: So Doc was kind of an adopted New Englander. But New England sports fans, Diane, have a great respect for the game. And they admire people and athletes of great character; great talent, great success and they realized that that Irving-Byrd era was indeed special. But we talk about Byrd-Magic, I mean, don't ever minimize the Irving-Byrd era.

Diane Sullivan: Right.

Pat Williams: Julius was a little bit older than Larry, you know, he'd been around longer, but that was a special six, seven-year period.

Diane Sullivan: And in your career you were responsible for the acquisition and the trade of Doctor J, as I recall. Is that correct?

Pat Williams: Yeah, we were in Philadelphia and it was 1976, the merger had just taken place of the two leagues that summer and Julius had a problem with the owner of the Nets; they had a major disagreement over the contract. And the Nets were just coming into the NBA. And Julius was not in camp. And it went on. I remember talking to the GM there, Billy Melchionni, and asking him a question, "Would Julius ever be available?" He said, "Nope." I said, "Well if that ever changes call me." And about three weeks later he called and said, "Our owner needs money."

Diane Sullivan: Wow.

Pat Williams: I said, "How much?" He said, "Three million." I said, "What's it going to take to sign him?" He said, "Probably another three." That's six, Diane. Now in 1976--

Diane Sullivan: That was a ton of money.

Pat Williams: Staggering.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah.

Pat Williams: We had a new owner, man named F. Eugene Dixon who had--good guy but had not background in basketball, it was, you know, brand new to him. Never seen a game, really. I had to drive out to his farm on the edge of Philadelphia to tell him what was stirring. And I'll never forget Fitz he looked at me and he said, "Now tell me, Pat," he said, "Who is this Julius Irving?" I said, "Well Fitz, let's call him the Babe Ruth of basketball." He said, "Well how much is it going to take to get him?" He said--and I said it real quick and, kind of, "six million," you know. And he said, "Tell me, are you recommending this?" This is my new owner.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah.

Pat Williams: And I said, "Yes sir, I am." And he said, "Well, let's do it!"

Diane Sullivan: Wow.

Pat Williams: Like that. And that was--off we went to New York to hammer the deals out over night and boy it all happened like that.

Diane Sullivan: Good for you.

Pat Williams: Oh my, what a time.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah, wow, yeah. Do you find today that players are really out there, because basketball salaries are, for many, a small percentage of their income? Are they searching for endorsement contracts or is it the game that they really love?

Pat Williams: Oh they do, they love basketball. And let me say this, Diane; there're not that many endorsement contracts. You know, Shaq gets some stuff, he's back in the news now with Burger King, and this, that, and the other. Koby's doing some stuff but I'm not seeing a whole lot. I mean, you know, you don't turn on the TV and see a whole lot of other guys. It's the ones who have won and have produced big results. So these guys are athletes, above all, they're basketball players; this is how they make their living. They work at it 12 months a year. They train, by and large; most of them train year round. They know, in the old days, Diane, these guys would come in and play themselves into shape, you know, at training camp. After a nice summer of relaxation and dissipation, perhaps, you know, they would play themselves, can't do that any more.

Diane Sullivan: Right. It's year round?

Pat Williams: Oh! I mean the first day, and you better be getting better too. Tom Peters, the business guru says, "If you're not getting better faster than the other guy is getting better, you're getting worse." And I think ball players understand that.

Diane Sullivan: Is, in your opinion, Shaq as good as Chamberlain?

Pat Williams: Well I see Jerry West recently said that, and Jerry parentheses says, "I'm not believing I'm saying this." But he said Shaq's the greatest center of all time. And Jerry was kind of stunned that he said it.

Diane Sullivan: And your reaction to that?

Pat Williams: Well, you could argue it. Shaq's just 30; it'll be interesting to see what the next five or six years hold. But he's starting to rack up some championships now and, you know, statistically, no one will ever match Chamberlain, ever, I mean, go look at his numbers. And they didn't even keep blocked shots in those days. But his numbers are staggering. And Russell's the greatest winner of all time. But let's put it this way, Shaq is moving into that area. And listen, we didn't even talk about Kareem. That's an argument.

Diane Sullivan: That's the guy I love to hate the most.

Pat Williams: Why?

Diane Sullivan: When he came in for the final game in the NBA Championship and the headlines on the Boston Globe, "He Had a Headache" and he comes in with his gas mask and couldn't deal with the heat. To me, he was the biggest crybaby *(inaudible).

Pat Williams: Well, Diane, that's your--again, this is your--

Diane Sullivan: That's my Boston bias.

Pat Williams: --your Boston background, right, you struggle with the Yankees and--

Diane Sullivan: I do, I do!

Pat Williams: But this is a good thing, Diane, don't ever change. There are four markets in the country that I call "dirt under the fingernail" sports markets where this is more important than life and death. And everything in the city revolves around the sports teams. I mean, it's intense every day, year round. Boston, of course, New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago, those are the big four. Then there's a second grouping that I, you know, Detroit, St. Louis, forget Atlanta, there's no passion in Atlanta.

Diane Sullivan: Is Orlando coming?

Pat Williams: Well we're a one-horse town; we'll never be there.

Diane Sullivan: No?

Pat Williams: No. You know, we have all of our energies poured into this basketball team but we'll never catch up because they're, you know, our history is 13 years. But I'm--

Diane Sullivan: But you won a championship.

Pat Williams: No, no, no, no, no. No, we got to the finals but, Diane, do you understand sports in Boston and New York, I mean, we're back into the 19th Century and great grandfathers, you know, took their sons and it's all just been passed down to generation to generation. This is real reality so don't change your fire in any way, I mean, until the day you die you should be hating Kareem.

Diane Sullivan: Well that's good to know.

Pat Williams: I mean, and don't apologize for it. You know, you don't have to explain it away. You should not like him. You know, you've been kind to Doctor J today. But Doctor J was one of the few that Bostonians don't hate.

Diane Sullivan: Yes! Yes!

Pat Williams: Because he was really a good guy.

Diane Sullivan: When I was speaking with Ira Burkow, he told me that he believed, as painful as it is to me, the greatest player of all times is Michael Jordan. He said, however, if he was on the basketball court, the one player he would choose, of course, would be Bill Russell. Your reaction?

Pat Williams: You know that would be hard to argue with. I mean, Michael Jordan is clearly the most talented dominant player of all time. And I don't think anybody would argue with that. And the fact that he won six titles, you know, took away that stigma that he just a one-man band. And nobody's ever done what Michael has done and I don’t think ever will. But, again, we're in different eras but the Russell era was so phenomenal. And you go back, go back to his two titles at San Francisco, his Olympic Gold, you know, then he won one as a player coach, 11 titles in 13 years. Whew. I mean, he was just otherworldly and there's such a huge, huge respect for Bill Russell. And I think as Bill, it seems now at this point in his life, Diane, to be enjoying it more. I think he's relaxed to the point that he can really enjoy his life now and enjoy what he did. I think that, to me is the most satisfying thing, one of the brightest guys.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah.

Pat Williams: Oh! I mean he's brilliant and so fascinating to talk to. He wrote a book last year, you know, which I thought was excellent, there's a lot to Bill Russell.

Diane Sullivan: And it's nice that he's finally found, as I perceive it to be, the peace in Boston.

Pat Williams: Yeah, I think he's come to peace with it. You know, it's fun to turn the playoff games on this spring and he's there, you know, with his team. I love that. That wouldn't have happened some years back. I think he's--And his daughter had a big influence on him, for whatever reasons he's at home as his approaches his 70th birthday.

Diane Sullivan: Speaking of his daughter, I want to say personally to you on air, thank you for all you've done for all the children that you've adopted. Is there some 15 or 14 of them now?

Pat Williams: Well we have 14 adopted from four foreign countries, 19 total, quite a brood Diane.

Diane Sullivan: I bet it is.

Pat Williams: The oldest is 30, the youngest is 16 and it's been--It's an adventure, you know, we are not the Cleavers, we're not Ozzie and Harriet. You know, we've been through everything that a family could be through.

Diane Sullivan: I bet so.

Pat Williams: It's nice as the kids; however, as they begin to grow up they become human beings. I think that's the most wonderful thing to see the fruit of your effort. And I tell parents across the country every way I can, you know, don't get discouraged with your childrearing. You know, particularly through those teen years.

Diane Sullivan: Those horrible teens.

Pat Williams: Pretty tough, pretty tough. But keep investing in your children; keep investing--even though you see no returns, even though you see no encouragement. Those principles that you're trying to instill in your children, they are getting in there even though there's no acknowledgement in many cases. And as they turn the corner, you know, into their 20s, you know, you begin to see, Ah, they got it! They got it. It's a good, good feeling.

Diane Sullivan: For girls, it takes us to about 30 before you can say--

Pat Williams: Ah!

Diane Sullivan: "Ah-ha! Made it."

Pat Williams: It takes that long? Okay.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah, it does.

Pat Williams: Well that will be encouraging to me. We're writing a book about this, my wife and I are writing a book, the ultimate parenting book, I think. And that's going to--We're having a good time putting this together.

Diane Sullivan: Since we're talking about kids, do you worry at all about so many parents now see basketball as a viable career alternative? Which is really is not for the their kids. Kids are spending all of their time, especially ghetto kids, out trying to be the next Michael Jordan when, in fact, the statistics say they're not going to achieve, in most likelihood, NBA success?

Pat Williams: Well I have no problem, Diane, shooting for the moon, shooting for the sun because if you don't make it, maybe you filter down in there among the stars. And it's so important for kids to be consumed with something positive. So if my kid spends 24 hours a day practicing, thinking, sleeping, dreaming, working on basketball, I'm okay with that.

Diane Sullivan: Even if he's not *(inaudible)?

Pat Williams: No, it's great. Oh! Diane, he's going to school--

Diane Sullivan: Yeah?

Pat Williams: --now don't get me wrong.

Diane Sullivan: Okay.

Pat Williams: I mean, he's not going to neglect his education but I don't want my kid, in his teen years particularly, with no interests, no passion, no drive, no enthusiasm, about anything except hanging out in the mall, or bopping around with friends, or being tempted by all the pull out there because if the kids doesn't have some passion or interest in his life, they're going to gravitate to the bad stuff, in every case. And so whether it's music, or sports, or computers, or acting, or singing, or dancing, or--I don't care what it is but hopefully word can get to these kids, do your best, play hard, and go have fun. But don't put all your money, or all your efforts in this one bank that I'm going to be a zillionaire through basketball, because it may not happen.

Diane Sullivan: Right.

Pat Williams: Real good odds, just like the odds of being the next Celine Dion or the next Mariah Carey, you know, those aren't very good odds.

Diane Sullivan: No they're not. And for many years young girls didn't have the same dreams as boys did and that was a big part of the problem.

Pat Williams: Well now they've got every opportunity. Nothing wrong with pursuing those dreams, but the bottom line is you've got to get, minimum, a high school education, you've got to get through college if you have the ability and the means to do it. And, listen, a Masters Degree is almost mandatory now so you've got to stay focused and hammer on the education.

Diane Sullivan: And our hope our parents hear that message. Pat, my final question; who was the best player of all times and the best team of all times?

Pat Williams: Well, you know, I would argue that our team in Philadelphia, 1983, for one year, was among them and that '83 club was very special and being part of that was a big part of my life. However, having said that, how about this 70-win Bulls team? You know, it would be awfully hard to argue against that. These are these late night discussions that would go round and round forever. Some would argue the one great Boston club, you know, they had many but there was one that was just dominant, you know, just exceptional. So this would go on. And the Nicks fans would tell you, "Wait a minute, it was our team!" And we talked about Michael. I think if you asked me to pick one player to start a time with of all time, you'd have to pick Michael.

Diane Sullivan: I think based on reading your book that was the obvious conclusion.

Pat Williams: Well I got consumed with Michael, Diane, because when he left in '98, or appeared to be leaving, my thought was we had lived through a period of genius. Yes, basketball genius, but a 15-year period, the likes of which we have never seen before and may never see again. And so I was determined to dig in here and figure out what it was that set Michael apart. And more importantly, what can the rest of us learn from that and apply to our lives? And, boy, I got absolutely engrossed in this project and wrote the book and I think figured out a way that we all can be like Mike.

Diane Sullivan: Pat, I can't thank you enough for sharing this time with me today, it has been invaluable. And thank you so much.

Pat Williams: Thank you Diane, good to see you.

Diane Sullivan: Joining me now is one of the most spectacular passers to ever play the game. This Hall of Fame-r was a member of six NBA Championship teams; 1957, 1959, and 1960 through 1963. He revolutionized basketball with his razzle-dazzle ball handling skills and today is one of the most respected NBA analysts. Bob Cousy, welcome to the show.

Bob Cousy: Thank you Diane. I should bring you on the road with me as my PR agent.

Diane Sullivan: Are the great match-ups still there like the Byrd-Magic era?

Bob Cousy: Oh absolutely. You know, in our days it was Russ and Wilt, I mean, you know, this is marketing, this is, you know, you said you interviewed Pat Williams. I mean, he was the originator of marketing techniques in the NBA and a lot of the other leagues in football and baseball, I think, adopted a lot of his techniques. So, as we said a moment ago sports, professional sports, is showbiz, you know, it gets the people in there. And once you get them in, in case the game sucks and is not a good game, you know, how do you keep them coming? So now it's a happening, it's an event.

Diane Sullivan: Will we go back to the good ole days at some point?

Bob Cousy: Oh, no, no, no, no.

Diane Sullivan: This is here to stay?

Bob Cousy: Oh absolutely. It's our great capitalistic system at work, Diane, you know. I mean people are always saying to me, "God, you were born 20 years too soon." Well, I don't know, if I were out, you know, I was going to say driving a cab but then all the cab drivers will be mad at me. But the point is if I had a nine to five job that I really had to work at, I'd probably would be bitter as hell and saying, "Yeah, I was born 20 years too soon!" But thank God, you know, we've been very fortunate and then, yeah, I don't have $20 million to leave to our kids, but we have enough to sustain our lifestyle. And I played at a time when it was, yes we didn't have financial security but we had a lot of other things that, you know, you're talking about that are much more meaningful now--



Diane Sullivan: That really matters?

Bob Cousy: --to us at this stage of our lives.

Diane Sullivan: Right.

Bob Cousy: You know? The relationships between the wives, for instance, I mean, we've maintained, to this day, relationships with our teammates, my wife stays in communication with the old, old wives, meaning the first wives in some cases or whatever, you know. I don't know that our relationships are any more meaningful than theirs but the point is, you know, you were much more involved, playing the game seemed much more fun, when you reached certain goals they seemed much more meaningful. Maybe these guys would say the same thing? You know, but it just seems to me that when you've got the kind of security, everyone has to be motivated no matter what they do in life, you know. And when you eliminate or neutralize that to any degree, which the big money contacts--I occasionally go out and speak and everybody's interested in numbers and I'd say I was the number one pick in the NBA in 1950, I held out for $10,000. The number one pick five or six years ago, a kid from Milwaukee, held out for $60--actually, he held out for $100 million, but he signed for $69 million. And then I'd say I was the highest-paid player in the league when I retired in 1963 I earned $35,000. The highest paid player three years ago, some guy named Michael--And everybody jump "Yeah Jordan!" And I'd say, yeah, Michael Jordan, he earned $33 million for one season, you know. So, obviously, there's been a slight escalation. That's wonderful for the players, I'm not saying--If I were playing today, I'd be lined up--I'd be first in line waiting for that $33 million, you know, we all relate it to our circumstances. So I'm not saying, hey, that's our system, that's how it works, people are prepared to pay that kind of money for what you do, in this case, play a child's game. Get on line and jump at the chance. But I'm saying it is, in terms of a highly competitive area of endeavor where you're out there semi-nude in front of 18,000 people playing this child's game. And in order to be successful you have to reach that next level in terms of complimenting your God-given talent with the mental approach to motivation.

Diane Sullivan: Right.

Bob Cousy: And if you've got all that money, it's going to have an effect on that, you're not quite going to do the job as well for as long. And so it's a neutralizing aspect to it and that's what we're left with. And for you, the fan, who pays, as I say, 80 bucks and wants to see quality every time, you may see it, but it's not as sustained as it was, in my judgment, 30 years ago.

Diane Sullivan: Discuss, if you would, some of the changes and the thought process about weight training. It used to be that it was believed you should never weight lift because it would ruin your touching game. But today, players are training as never before.

Bob Cousy: Yeah, but with a very specific professionally designed format, Diane, you know. I still--I was one of those people who felt--At the time I had never seen a good muscle-bound shooter, you know. They would help under the boards and in the pain, the trenches to do the dirty work, but I never saw and I remember we had a guy, *Luskitoff, who was my protector for years and Jim was a Mr. America model and he had a pretty soft shooting touch. Elgin Baylor; although Elgin wasn't a muscle-builder type, but also an excellent shooter so, but anyway, that pretty much has gone by the boards now. And they have combined, you know, the whole approach to coaching and basketball is so much more scientific comprehensive. Now they do aerobic dances before they even start to practice for 15 or 20 minutes. And then they have the weight program you're talking about. But it's all carefully designed, you know, obviously not to overdo so that it doesn't affect the finesses, the shooting touch, or the passing game, or you don't become bulky because, believe it or not, again in my judgment, basketball, in the minds of most people, is associated with big, strong guys, certainly tall guys and that's true. But what separates the men from the boys in the sport at any level, again in my judgment, is speed and quickness. Now if you happen to be seven feet and 350 pounds like Shaq and you also have speed and quickness for you size, then you become unstoppable, which Shaq is, you know. But that's an ingredient that's necessary so you don't want to dilute that at any position in the game. You don't want to dilute it with any mechanisms that you might be using to build a bigger, stronger, you know, better basketball player. And I think they've done that fairly successfully.

Diane Sullivan: Since you brought him up, is Shaq as good as Chamberlain, in your opinion?

Bob Cousy: Yeah, a little different type. Wilt was the strongest guy in the league, you know, and the only guy who could somewhat neutralize him was Russell, obviously. But Russ himself would say, hey, you know, Wilt could at times dominate him because he was so much bigger. Wilt was about 7'4" and I don't know what he weighed, 260 or so. But Shaq is about 7'3" or 4" and weighs 350 and yet he moves like a six-footer, you know. So it's incredible and yeah, there are 29 teams in the league at the moment, there are only about six centers and most of them, or some of them are ready to pack it in. David Robinson is about ready to quit; Patrick Ewing is about ready to quit. Olajuwon is on his way out. So most of the teams in a league of making do with power forward types; the Celtics have this kid, Battie. And Tony's about 6'10" and weighs about 220, well, you know. And he has to guard Shaq at 7'4" and 350. So you can imagine now if Shaq was slow and lumbering, now Tony would have, you know, Battie would have more than a good chance of holding his own with him, but he's not, he's probably as quick as Battie if not as fast. So Shaq, at this point in time, there's no one on the horizon to give him any kind of a battle at all. That's what made the Russell-Chamberlain match-up so attractive to the fans, you know, Russ could, for the most part, hold his own. And I remember Wilt went to a fall away 15-foot shot, backboard shot, and the reason he did that was because Russell wouldn't let him bring the ball into the basket and simply overpower him physically. The other guys, the other centers that tried to guard him would allow him to do that, Russ was quick enough where he forced him to that level. And he was very effective with that level of a shot, but in terms of the lesser of the evils, as an opponent, you much prefer it to see Wilt falling away with that little 15-footer than following his shot and just wiping out the opposition for a slam dunk, you know.

Diane Sullivan: My final question, I'm going to bring you out of retirement, put you back on the court, you can pick four teammates, who would they be?

Bob Cousy: You mean guys I played with?

Diane Sullivan: You don't have to limit it--

Bob Cousy: Oh, yeah, it's--

Diane Sullivan: You can pick anyone you want.

Bob Cousy: It's impossible to, you know, there's so many great ones. I still think Russell is, you know, when you say best you don't--was the most productive center that's ever played the game. Jabbar, for instance, in terms of the skills, if there was a machine that could measure skills, Jabbar did everything quite well. Didn't have Russell's animal intensity, for instance, you know, and so he didn't quite compliment those skills as well as Russell complimented his lesser skills, in terms of shooting, passing, etcetera. But as a result, you know, he complimented the guys that he was surrounded with so well that we, as I say, he won 11 championships in 13 years. The best guards that I played with in those days were West and Oscar who could obviously still be amongst the elite in the league. From the old days Bob Pettit was the best power forward. You know, the Doctor Js, the Larry Byrds, I mean, you can go on and on and on, to try to pick four, Diane, is doing a disservice to so many others, you know, because there's not a lot of difference between the really great ones.

Diane Sullivan: Would you pick any of today's players? Are they as good as the players in your day?

Bob Cousy: Oh, sure. Well, this Jason Kidd that's leading the Nets against the Celtics at the moment is, I think, the premiere. You know, John Stockton has been the outstanding point guard for years and years and years and he was the whole package. But this Jason Kidd is a little bigger, penetrates a little better, he at the moment is the best point guard in the league and he could have played in our day or any day. So yeah, they'll, you know, obviously Larry Byrd who's not that far removed, Kevin McHale, both have to be mentioned in this kind of company. I'm probably, you know, forgetting--Elgin Baylor, going back to small forwards. I'm probably forgetting a lot of guys that are going to get upset with me because I haven't mentioned them.

Diane Sullivan: What about Michael Jordan?

Bob Cousy: Gees, that's what I mean about saying your moments, yeah. No, no, I concur along with everyone else in the basketball world, Michael is the best player to play this came since Dr. (Inaudible) Smith hung up the hoop. Yeah, Michael, at his position, certainly, but a best, Michael is the best all-around player that has played the game. You know, 10 years from now, maybe 20, we'll be picking someone else because it goes forward, you know, the athlete is bigger, better, stronger than he was 20 years ago with all these aids we've talked about. You know, kids today, from the minute they jump out of the womb the father or the mother are looking, "Oh! There's a muscle, send him to football camp." Or send him here or "God he's going to be tall we've got to get him at six years old into a specialized clinic." There's so many aids out there available to the young jocks of the world, female and male, as you know, that we didn't have access to, you know. Now is this going to create a better, bigger athlete? The jocks in the NBA today, and I'm not, because I say I take pride in what we accomplished as a team, I'm not one of those guys that think that, you know, that we were better than today's athletes. The baseball fighters will fight you to the death, the old timers, that they were better than today's. I don't think that applies in any other sport, certainly not basketball. I don't know, however, even though athletically, they're bigger, you know, and I jumped as high as I could, I touched the bottom of the net. When Michael jumped as high as he can, he jumps over the damn backboard, you know. So they're bigger, better, stronger, okay? Whether there's been a commensurate advancement in passing skills, how to play the game skills, dribbling skills, I think I would argue that point with today's player. So there has been, physically, an advancement, and in 20 years they'll be even bigger and stronger, I guess.

Diane Sullivan: Bob Cousy, you're as wonderful as ever. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Bob Cousy: A pleasure Diane.

Diane Sullivan: Thank you. Joining me now in New York City is Ira Berkow, a sports columnist for the New York Times for more than 20 years. Ira has been a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize for Distinguished Commentary and in 2000 shared the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting with his article on the "Minority Quarterback". He is the author of a number of books including "To the Hoop" a simply terrific read. Thank you for joining me Ira. Is it true that from the time some kids are in sixth grade or eighth grade they're treated as little Gods by shoe companies that want them affiliated with their product and coaches who are trying to move up the coaching ladder?

Ira Berkow: It used to be that colleges recruited high school kids and generally high school seniors or even sometimes a junior. And now the recruiting seems to go, as you say, into sixth grade, fifth grade. And this more and more and it just seem to distort all of what sport is all about. But the coaches from the high schools want it because it makes them look better and yes, there's all--And then they might get jobs in colleges and also there's the shoe contracts, I mean, shoe contracts are big. And fifth and sixth graders showing talent are a means to an end for these people.

Diane Sullivan: Because of the enormous money in the business of basketball are young players surrounded by hangers on telling the kid how great he is?

Ira Berkow: When kids begin to show athletic skills when they're 10, 11, and 12 years old the hangers on start coming, boys and girls. Shaquille O'Neal was saying that when he was about 12 years old and he wasn’t sure of himself *(inaudible) become very good in basketball, he was very tall. I mean, when he was 12 years old, he looked like he was about 20, I guess. And he said, "And that's when I began to get the girls." And he said, "I worked at basketball to get the girls." And so, but then he got, also, the hangers on and, yeah, they're all telling him how wonderful he is and this continues on.

Diane Sullivan: Do parents view basketball as a viable career goal, despite tremendous odds?

Ira Berkow: Oh, yeah. I mean, if a kid has a talent--if a parent or parents have a talented athlete in the family, or even vaguely talented, he could be their lottery ticket.

Diane Sullivan: Yeah.

Ira Berkow: And so, yeah, you know, I remember Arthur Ash saying, talking about the black community, and saying that we spend, our kids, spend too much time on the playing fields and the basketball courts and not enough time in the libraries. And he's correct about this because it's such a long shot, you know, to make it as a professional and to really make money but all these kids have dreams. As a school yard player myself and playing through the years, even as an adult, and playing with younger kids. I would see some of these kids and some of them really weren't very good. They were hardly even good high school players. But they all thought somehow, "I'm going to make the NBA, I'm going to be Michael Jordan." Well it's good to aspire to something, it's good to have goals, and it’s good to have heroes. But someone should bring in some sense of reality and, maybe for high school kids, teenagers, it's a little difficult but eventually they learn, one way or the other. And sometimes the lesson is a hard one.

Diane Sullivan: Jordan's entrance into the NBA coincided with the growth of cable television. Networks like ESPN and at Sports Center put athletes on display like never before.

Ira Berkow: Oh absolutely. I mean, instead of--It was a fast break, instead of making just a normal lay-up, they'll make a 360 dunk behind their head. Oh, that's 180, you know, if they do it behind their head, but 360. Or they'll twirl around and then they'll just do whatever they possibly can do because they're thinking, "I'm going to be in Sports Center with this one." Just, you know, a normal lay-up won't get you anything, you know, won't get you, certainly, on the nightly news.

Diane Sullivan: Different topic. Contrary to years ago when the theory was that weight training would ruin a player's touch in-game, players today lift weights and they engage in other forms of physical training as never before. The result is bigger, stronger, faster basketball players. This begs the question, why pass when one can slam one home?

Ira Berkow: Well, yeah, I mean, of course you want a team with, you know, that encompasses other gifted players, perhaps not quite as gifted as you. I mean, you mentioned Kevin Garnett. Kevin Garnett has in his, what, four or five years in the NBA and he's been in the playoffs three, four years or so, his team has never gotten past the playoffs, the first round of the playoffs. The reason is that he still doesn't know all of the elements of winning basketball, including making the other players better. I mean, he should sit and just stare at Larry Byrd and Magic Johnson tapes and even the latter day, Michael Jordan, what Michael Jordan did with the Washington Wizards was fantastic this year. Bringing in the other players, I mean, he's still the individual great star but he was absolutely bringing other players into it.

Diane Sullivan: Ira, should anything be done to change the game back to a passing team-oriented game?

Ira Berkow: Again, you know, the smartest players, the best players, understand that it's a team game. But with the players being bigger and stronger, should make the game even more entertaining on every level. But as I say, Kevin Garnett, he has to learn, he hasn't yet. Now a guy like Tim Duncan, who is just a wonderful, wonderful player, he just doesn't have enough good players to compete quite yet with the Lakers. Now, as far as team players are concerned, and you see the difference, great example this year is Jason Kidd with the New Jersey Nets. Last year, with Stephan Marberry, who is not really a gifted team player, and there was a trade, Marberry for Kidd, Kidd coming to Phoenix, Marberry going to Phoenix, and the team went from something like 25 and 55 to 55 and 25 and it was all because of Jason Kidd, well almost all because of Jason Kidd. They have another player, Kenyon Martin who is, in his second year, is playing better now than he did because he's learned it. And a guy name Kerry Kittles, who was out all of last year, a guard, is very good and so he's helped. But Jason Kidd has been really, really important and he was voted second in the MVP voting this year. But he lifted this team, when you're watching the Nets, it's so much fun to watch. Here is a great passer and a great team player and this argues for what basketball should be and continues to be on the highest level. Jason Kidd is a perfect model for this.

Diane Sullivan: Would enforcing rules that are largely ignored today make a difference? For example, would the individual skill of Allen Iverson be diluted if he were called for palming when he does his crossover dribble?

Ira Berkow: It's an interesting question. If Allen Iverson were called for palming in his crossover move more than, well, I don't think he is called any more, they were calling palming, you know, a handful of years or more but they stopped doing that. If some of the players were called for traveling when they take five and six steps, I remember, I mean, when Patrick Ewing was playing here, it seemed he would go from one end of the court to the other with the ball and never take a bounce and you just, you look at this, it's just transformed the game in so many ways. But the reason, and I remember when I was coming up, you could take one and a-half steps for, like, a lay-up and now you can two steps. This is legal, two steps is legal now. And it makes a huge amount of difference in that. So players can do more things if you don't have to--It's like walking and chewing gum at the same time, you know. I mean, now you don't have to--you can drive to the hoop and not have to dribble the ball. I mean, that makes a big difference in many respects. But, you know, the game, yeah, and I would like to see those things called again the way game was when I was coming up, I just thought it was more interesting and more skillful. And the physical aspects of it, the way they just crash into each other under the basket. I remember last year in the playoffs, it was Mutombo lifted someone off the ground and wasn't even called for a foul. The guy had the ball, he lifted him off of the ground, wasn't called for a foul and you're wondering what are the referees watching? But I say all this with all these criticisms and yet I find the games usually entertaining when they're close.

Diane Sullivan: Would forbidding kids from turning pro early make a difference?

Ira Berkow: Well in some regards. You know, I think that all the players could benefit from college ball, going four years to college because they're playing. A lot of players, if they opt to go to the pros out of high school and make it, or out of the first year and make it, or even the second year and make it, they don't play often right away. And so they could be getting this experience playing. I have no problems with them leaving school whenever they want to, to try to earn a living, I have no problems with that. But if you're asking about well, could they, would they be better players if they stayed in school a little longer, and the answer is yes.

Diane Sullivan: Ira, is Shaq as good as Chamberlain was?

Ira Berkow: Shaq is as good as Chamberlain.

Diane Sullivan: He is?

Ira Berkow: I think Shaq is as good as Chamberlain; he has more offensive moves than Chamberlain. You know, Chamberlain had two major moves, a finger roll, which is, kind of, almost, like, kind of a dunk and a fade away, this is a 7'3" guy, a fade-away jump shot. O'Neal has very good post moves, a turnaround jump shot and, of course, that tremendous dunk. He is as poor a free-throw shooter as Chamberlain; in fact, he may even be a little bit better free-throw shooter than Chamberlain. He's shooting, at this point in the playoffs; he's shooting about 60 percent. The free-throw looks awful, I mean, it looks like a grade school girl could shoot the ball, free throws, better than O'Neal. But he's shooting around 60 percent; maybe career is about 55 percent. Chamberlain career was about 51 percent, in the playoffs it was about 46 percent, it dropped. Most players when they get into the playoffs, they're percentages, particularly the free throw percentages rise, they concentrate a little bit more but Chamberlain's surprisingly dropped. And Bill Russell, you may want to compare Russell to Shaquille O'Neal, for example, I don't know, I guess I'd probably, in the end, would take Russell because he might be able to pass the ball a little bit better and I liked his brain, you know, you just like Bill Russell's brain and the way he could block shots and help the other players. And Russell was also a poor free-throw shooter. Percentage, I was just looking it up so that's why I--

Diane Sullivan: But that's just practice.

Ira Berkow: He shot about 56 percent in free throws during the season, which a little bit, compared to Chamberlain's 51 percent, it's still kind of poor. And people say, well big guys have a problem shooting free throws, they're hands are so big and so forth. But I looked up George Mikan, shooting a free throw, now George Mikan shot close to 80 percent and he was 6'10". So, yeah, I mean, sometimes free throws get in the head, you can practice, practice, practice, there's a player for Detroit, Rodman was a terrible free throw shooter and he never practiced and that was one major reason why he was such a bad free throw shooter. But some of these guys practice and then they--it becomes a mental thing. I don't quite understand it, you know, but it's sort of like a baseball pitcher, suddenly losing his control not being able to throw the ball over the plate, you know, it's totally mental.

Diane Sullivan: Final question. Who were the best player of all times and the best team of all times?

Ira Berkow: I guess you'd have to say that Michael Jordan was the best player of all time. But it's interesting, if I were in a schoolyard and there were ten guys lined up, I mean, and I was going to play in the game, and they flip a coin, I have first pick, okay, that's the question, it be a little bit different question who's the best player of all time. The best player probably of all time was Michael Jordan. But if I flip a coin, okay, I have first pick, who do I pick at the schoolyard? I'd pick Bill Russell. Bill Russell was a phenomenon in team sports; no one has even got close to what he did in team sports. He played in the NBA for 13 seasons, his team won the World Championship 11 of the 13 seasons and one of those seasons they were going into the final game of a seven-game series against St. Louis and I think he sprained his ankle and didn't play in the game and they lost. If he had been in the game, probably would have won that. And then he won the NCA Championship two years in a row and he got a gold medal in the Olympics. The most, maybe for the shortest period of time, the most remarkable record as far as team sports and winning is concerned, is Magic Johnson. In a period of four years Magic Johnson won three championships on three different levels. He was a senior in high school; they won the Michigan State High School Basketball Championship. When he went to Michigan State, as a sophomore, they won the NCAA Championship, as a rookie in the NBA the Lakers won, with him, the Lakers won the NBA Championship. Three tremendous championships on three different levels in four years, I don't think that will ever be repeated.

Diane Sullivan: How about the best team?

Ira Berkow: I would say the most entertaining team of all time, I'll start there, for me anyway, were the Celtics with Larry Byrd. And as far as the best team of all time, I would have to say, again, the Celtics with Bill Russell and, what, seven or eight Hall of Famers, from Sam Jones, K. C. Jones, Heinsohn, Havlicek, Sharman, Cousy, they all didn't play all quite at the same time but they're all in the same era and I don't know of any team that has so many Hall of Famers and won so regularly but I would be hard pressed to get a better team than those Bill Russell teams.

Diane Sullivan: Thank you for joining me today. Joining me now in the Sports Museum located at the Fleet Center here in Boston Massachusetts, is Richard Johnson who is fondly known by many as the sole man of Boston Sports. Dick, welcome to the show.

Richard Johnson: Thank you very much.

Diane Sullivan: What is your favorite team of all times?

Richard Johnson: In basketball would be the Celtics of the Dave Cowens, John Havlicek, Jo Jo White era, I'd say the 1974 team, in particular because their playoff series in the championship finals against the Bucks was a classic. Now, it pales a little in comparison to the championship finals against the Phoenix Suns two years later because we didn't have a triple-overtime game. But there was an overtime game in game six at the Boston Garden that was an epic struggle which the Celtics lost, meaning they had to play a seventh game on the road. Not many teams win championship games concluding championship games on the road, the Celtics did, in fact. And the first half of that game in Milwaukee, it's as though they flipped a switch and turned the crowd off. The crowd was going at first then they took the Bucks out of the game and took the crowd out of the game and ended up winning the game pretty handily. And it was a team that wasn't expected to win because here's Dave Cowens, a guy who at the time would have been projected more as a power forward at 6'8" playing the pivot. John Havlicek, who was blossoming in the, sort of the home stretch of his career and Jo Jo White who, on a given night, could shoot the lights out. They were a wonderful club and one I think that are overlooked sometimes when you talk about the great Celtic championship teams.

Diane Sullivan: I think you're right on that.

Richard Johnson: Yeah.

Diane Sullivan: Who is your all-time favorite player in basketball?

Richard Johnson: Bill Russell would be and I just wish I got to see him more. Because I only saw him for the last four years of his career but he's a player who, again, made defense cool. You know, that his style was basically creating opportunities for the Celtics to do their fast break and there was nothing prettier in sports, even to this day and I watch the black and white footage we have in the archive of the sports museum, where he'll grab a rebound, all arms and legs flailing, usually land on one foot and as that one foot's sneaker is touching the hard wood, he releases an outlet pass, usually to Bob Cousy, on the wing who then, maybe one pass or two passes, the ball will maybe touch the floor once and the next thing you'll see is it going through the basket at the other end. Just pure joy for a Celtic fan and even if you just love the game of basketball, just the game, the way it should be played, I mean, just the textbook from heaven.

Diane Sullivan: Dick, my final question.

Richard Johnson: Sure.

Diane Sullivan: Comment on Boston as a sports town.

Richard Johnson: It may be the greatest all-around sports city in the world. And the reason I say that is because you have a confluence of history and geography that allows sports to be played every season, allow there to be any number of sports played at one time. So you could take a hypothetical day in April and you could ski in the White Mountains, come down to Boston watch a game at Fenway Park that afternoon, drive quickly down to the cape, get your surfboard out and surf, and then get back that night for a playoff game *(inaudible) the Celtics or the Bruins. There are not many other places in the country where you could do all that in one day. And the fact is, is that we still produce a great number of athletes. You know, we don't produce as many football players as Texas or as many baseball players as California or Florida, but I point out that on one week or one--a period of about two weeks back in 1981 we had graduating from local high schools probably the best players in their sport that year. You have Doug Flutie graduating from high school that year, Patrick Ewing, and Bobby Carpenter. So in hockey, football, and basketball you had the best athletes in the country graduating at roughly the same time, maybe even on the same day, that isn't bad.

Diane Sullivan: Not bad at all.

Richard Johnson: And our tradition in intercollegiate sports goes back 150 years, Harvard and Yale were wrote against each other 150 years ago this June and that was the start of intercollegiate sports in this country. Major league baseball started with the National Association in Boston in 1871 and it goes on from there. The Boston Celtics were a charter member of the NBA. The Bruins were the first American NHL team. The Marathon, it goes on and on. This is a great sports town.

Diane Sullivan: And I thank you again for joining me and for the contribution you are making to Boston's sports history.

Richard Johnson: Thank you very much.

Diane Sullivan: Thank you Dick. That's our show on the NBA. From here at the RDV Sportsplex in Orlando Florida, I'm Diane Sullivan. Thank you for joining me and until next time; be well.